Leader’s debate, Windsor, Sydney

DAVID SPEERS:

Malcolm Turnbull won the coin toss we had, a little earlier on; he's elected to speak first, this evening – that means, at the end, he will also speak first; Bill Shorten will speak last; so, for the opening pitches, over to you, Mr Turnbull.

PRIME MINISTER:

Well ,thank you very much, David, and it's great to be here at the Windsor RSL, just a few weeks away from the hundredth anniversary of the RSL, as we start our Parliamentary election campaign, celebrating our democracy and it's worth remembering, here at the RSL, as it approaches its centenary, that the democratic freedoms we're enjoying in this election and in our country were hard-won by men and women who put their lives on the line, many paying the supreme sacrifice, and they are honoured and the veterans and families supported by the RSL, today as they have been for a hundred years.

Now, my friends, what we are setting out, in this campaign, is an economic plan for jobs and growth. We live in a time of extraordinary opportunity, of the most rapid economic change, both in the pace and in the scale. There are big opportunities for us but we need a plan to be able to seize those opportunities and we've laid that plan out. Our plan is based on an innovation and science agenda we set out last year. It's based on investing in Australian industry and advanced manufacturing, as we support our defence industry. It's based on opening up those big markets in Asia with our trade export deals. It's based upon making our tax system support business - that's why we're supporting businesses, starting with small and medium businesses right across the country because we know that, as we bring their tax down, they'll invest more and they'll employ more and it's vital that we address the issue of youth unemployment and we have a new programme that will give young people who aren't in work, who are struggling to get into work the chance to do so and all of our investments, all of our spending, is fully funded. We're doing so, we're living within our means and we're bringing the Budget back into balance because that, too, is vital for our future.

DAVID SPEERS:

Mr Turnbull, thank you and, for your opening pitch, over to you, Bill Shorten.

BILL SHORTEN:

Good evening, everybody, and thank you very much for coming along tonight. You're busy people but you've chosen to give up your Friday night to have a discussion with us about where Australia's going and I'm really looking forward to hearing your views. I’m also looking forward, tonight, to explaining to you Labor's positive plans for Australia. Tonight, I'm looking forward to explaining to you that Labor has positive plans to promote jobs, that ye have positive plans for our education system so that every child, in every school in every postcode in the country, can get a quality education – one which doesn't depend upon the wealth of their parents or the particular school that they're going to and, by the same token, we're very committed to restoring public TAFE and making sure that our universities don't become unaffordable, for middle-class and working-class kids, with $100,000 degrees. We are determined, in Labor, to improve and defend Medicare. I believe Medicare's the great Australian standard of how we view ourselves and our community, that it's your Medicare card and not your credit card that determines the quality of your health care. We'll be talking about renewable energy and how we tackle the real problem of climate change, going forward, not leaving it to our children to handle all the tough issues and, of course, tonight, I hope to get the chance to talk about fair taxation and housing affordability but, when all's said and done, what I'm most interested to do is to explain to you that our view of the economy, our view of the future, is centred upon the proposition that, if this country and the Government put people first... that nothing can hold us back in the future. I'm really looking forward to your questions – if we don't get time, during the session, happy to talk to you afterwards, as well.

DAVID SPEERS:  

Thank you, both, and I'm sure many will... yes, give them a round of applause. I'm sure many will take up on your offer of a chat, later on, if we don't get through... we want to get through as many questions as we can, so I’ll invite you both to keep the answers as succinct as possible. Put your hand in the air, if you've got a question, and we're going to start right here, next to me, with Raffi [phon.]. Please stand up.

QUESTION:

Good evening, Honourable Prime Minister and Honourable Opposition Leader. Well, today, in the name of cost-saving, the business trend is moving everything and anything to offshore. Have you realised the serious impact it's having into our economy and our society? Do we have any plan... do you have any plan to stop the outsourcing trend so we can keep our jobs in Australia? Second part of the question, is whereas a small country in our region called Singapore is attracting all the global multinationals into their shore, in a bigger scale, why do you think Australia cannot do so? Do you have any plan to attract multinationals so they can come to Australia and, as a result, jobs can be created?

DAVID SPEERS:

Alright, thank you for the question and it appears to be to both of you, so, Prime Minister, to you first.

PRIME MINISTER:

Raffi, thank you very much for that question – it's a great one. Jobs and growth is our focus – that is what I'm seeking to do with our national economic plan. You mentioned Singapore and attracting multinationals to invest here and employ here. What we are moving on is lower taxes for businesses. We know that, as you bring down company tax, you will get more employment, more investment and you'll attract more investment into Australia – that is what Singapore has done; I don't think we'll ever get as low as Singapore, to be quite honest with you, but we need to be more competitive. Our business taxes are too high and that's widely acknowledged.

Now, in terms of outsourcing – a big issue and I understand the concern about that – the critical goal, for my Government, is to ensure that we are more competitive, more attractive, as a place to invest and employ and you're seeing, already, our policies working – 300,000 new jobs created last year, the highest since before the global financial crisis; 26,000 jobs created in March. Every lever of my policy, every element of our national economic plan is seeking to achieve exactly what you want to do, Raffi - more jobs and more growth.

DAVID SPEERS:

Alright, Mr Shorten?

BILL SHORTEN:  

Thanks, Raffi. Let's call it as it is, tonight. Under this Liberal Government, the car industry's disappeared – that is a massive offshoring. Before the Liberals got elected, there were 20 countries in the world who could build a car from woe to go [sic, go to woe?]; now there's 19 and do you think the other 19 countries were saying how clever we were or were they just cheering the fact we've lost the jobs? We've seen supply ships which should have been built in Australia now being built in Spanish dockyards. The first thing my Government will do, if we are elected, is maximise Australian content. If it hadn't been for the staunch defence by Labor to make sure that the submarines were going to be built in Adelaide, do we think we'd be discussing building the submarines in Adelaide today? Indeed, we had to fight so hard that my opponents got rid of Mr Abbott. We stand up for Australian manufacturing.

On the positive side, not only have we got a track record of opposing the outsourcing of manufacturing; we want Australia to be one of the renewable-energy manufacturing superpowers of the world. In the last two years, two million renewable-energy jobs were created, around the world. We're the only country who shed 3000, or nearly 3000, jobs.

We'll also make sure that, when it comes to important Government services, like the payments system for Medicare, not only do we not want to privatise the payments system for Medicare; we'll make sure, therefore, it doesn't go overseas and, in terms of attracting companies to Australia, what we will do is we'll have the best skilled workforce in the world – that's why we're putting so much effort into making sure there's more apprentices, making sure that our schools provide the kids with the skills they need for the jobs of the future.

DAVID SPEERS:

We'll get to education, I'm sure, tonight but, Raffi, can I just check, is that addressing the sort of issues…

QUESTION:

[unclear; yes, it's getting there?]

DAVID SPEERS:

Okay, let's get another question. Right here. Sir, your name?

QUESTION:

Bob.

DAVID SPEERS:

Bob, please stand up.

QUESTION:

I'm a local resident of Windsor, I've been here for 30 years, and I'm pleased to hear that Mr Shorten wants to talk about fair taxation tonight. I'm 67, I still work, I still pay a lot of tax. But I have a concern about the multinationals, and how they have been legally paying tax for a number of years through transfer pricing and complicated accounting methods. Both parties say you're going to fix it, both parties imply that its complex, and we have to discuss with the other G20 countries. Both say it's work-in-progress, I believe it is complex because the current legislation and tax system make it complex. The legislation needs to be simplified, for example, 20 years ago there were problems with pensioners on the interest they were earning on their bank accounts, so you put in a deeming policy. The problem with multinationals is you don't know how much they are making, so why don't you deem how much money they earn based on their earning per share, or some equivalent method so you can tax them fairly and reduce my tax instead of theirs?

DAVID SPEERS:

We'll go to you first Bill Shorten

BILL SHORTEN:

Thank Bob, and Labor has, whilst we've been in opposition, championing this issue of making multinationals pay their fair share. Now it seems that we're having some luck in persuading the Government, and their budget did talk about some measures more recently about making multinationals pay their fair share. The truth of the matter is, it is outrageous that the newsagency in the high street, or the chemist, or the small business or indeed the nurse or teacher going into work pay higher marginal rates of taxation than some multinationals do in Australia. That some of the tech giants can make, have massive turnover and revenue in Australia and then have to pay their Singapore offices licence fees, which by they then say they haven't made a profit in Australia, it really is outrageous. So we have proposed a series of measures which would improve the budget bottom line, because fundamentally in this country, it doesn’t matter how big a company they should still be paying their fair share of tax in Australia.

DAVID SPEERS:

Before we get to Mr Turnbull, what do you think of Bob's deeming idea?

BILL SHORTEN:

We're open to hear all the ideas, and that's one of the reasons why we're here tonight. In terms of the...

DAVID SPEERS:

You're open to the deeming of multinational companies?

BILL SHORTEN:

No, what I said I'd hear the ideas. But what we are doing, we look at the world wide gearing ratios of a company, and where they have disproportionate debt loaded up in Australia, and it's not simply explained by a massive construction job, then Australians are being treated as mugs.

DAVID SPEERS:

But is this a good idea or not?

BILL SHORTEN:

Well, what I've explained there David, we are proposing looking at the world wide gearing ratios, debt gearing ratios, which is a version of analysing whether or not they're actually gaming the Australian system or not, I'm more than happy Bob to talk to you after this about the specifics of your idea.

DAVID SPEERS:

You're not going to seriously pursue this idea?

BILL SHORTEN:

I just said I'd talk to Bob straight after this.

DAVID SPEERS:

Mr Turnbull.

PRIME MINISTER:

Well, thank you, thanks very much David. Bill's taking credit for many of the things the Government has done having the Labor in six years did not commission one Australian naval ship, form one Australian yard, and we have commissioned or in the process of commissioning 54, so he's taking credit for that which is suitably audacious. But let me say Bob, you're absolutely right, and you know something, you, what you've said about deeming is exactly what's in our budget. Bill should have read it more carefully. What we're doing is introducing what's called the diverted profits tax, which is based on what the UK, they called it there the 'Google tax', and what that basically says is that if the commissioner, the taxation commissioner in Australia believes that a multinational is shifting profits offshore and doing so for no reason other than moving offshore to avoid Australian tax, then they will not only be deemed to have earnt them here but they will pay an extra amount of company tax, and extra 10%, so they'd pay 40% instead of 30. So your idea is something that Scott Morrison has put into the budget. And can I say to you, that we now have the tough, either in legislation we voted in last year, which regrettably the Labor Party opposed but was passed nonetheless, and in what is in the budget, we now have the toughest laws to deal with multinational tax avoidance of any OECD country. So you're right, we believe in lower business taxes, but paying tax is not optional, everyone's got to pay it. And we've now got the tools to make sure what you seek, which is right, is going to be achieved.

DAVID SPEERS:

Alright, let's get another question. Amy?

QUESTION:

Hi, my name's Amy. I've got a question. If you're putting the Medicare levies up, are you going to put the pensions up as well? Because as it is we can't afford to see a doctor.

DAVID SPEERS:

Well the Medicare levy going up, do you mean? I don't think it's a proposal to put the Medicare levy up. Are you talking about the NDIS levy, or are you talking about...

QUESTION:

Well they were talking about us paying $25 to see a doctor.

DAVID SPEERS:

Oh I see, in terms of a GP co-payment?

QUESTION:

Yeah, a GP co-payment.

DAVID SPEERS:

Mr Turnbull.

PRIME MINISTER:

Well let me say, thank you for your question, and you're right to be concerned about the cost of medicine. Ensuring that we have an effective, affordable health system is absolutely critical. We've got a good balance in Australia, but it is vital to keep on ensuring that it does a better and better job. Now let me say to you in terms of, we had some good news today, in terms of GP's, the rate of bulk-billing is, has increased, it's now 85% and that's very good news, so that means 85% of consultations are being done just for the bulk-billed so the patient is not paying any premium of the kind you've described. So we're very aware of what you're seeking, what your concern is and I can assure you it's a key focus of our government to make sure that healthcare is affordable, it's got to be affordable for patients and consumers, it's got to also be affordable within the context of the budget, because we have to, as a nation, leave within our means.

DAVID SPEERS:

It was you predecessor Tony Abbott though who proposed the GP co-payment, are you saying...

PRIME MINISTER:

That's no part of our policy.

DAVID SPEERS:

Never ever?

PRIME MINISTER:

That's right.

 

DAVID SPEERS:

Mr Shorten?

BILL SHORTEN:

Well, thanks for your question. And for people who live on the pension, on a fixed income, healthcare costs are a giant issue. The Labor Party opposed the Liberal Party's proposition for a GP tax, and we are now fighting tooth and nail against the latest round of cuts, which the Liberals are enacting. The Liberals are proposing to cut the bulk-billing incentive for people who need pathology tests, blood tests, if you have chronic diabetes and the like. And the, what we are interested in is not putting addition pressure on the pathology systems, which means that the operators will have to introduce an upfront fee which will discourage people. See I have a different world view to the Coalition, I don't think making it more expensive to go to the doctor, or to get a blood test actually cures sick people. I don't actually even think it helps the taxpayer, because where you've got a pensioner, and you've got to pay your power bills, you've got to pay your food bills, and you've got to go to the doctor, something gives. You can't a make a go on $794 a fortnight. And my concern is, if you make sick people, and discourage them from going to a doctor, and we have got a world-class system, but if you make it harder for people to go to the doctor, they just get sicker, and then what happens is it costs the system more. Labor will be unveiling our health and hospitals policy, but Labor is absolutely opposed to getting rid of the bulk-billing incentive, and we're very sceptical that the Government's freeze on the increases they give to GP's is going to do anything other than force GPs, who are the frontline of our medical service, to actually increase the cost of going to the doctor, it doesn't make sense. I don't want to go down the American path.

DAVID SPEERS:

Will you end that freeze Mr Shorten?

BILL SHORTEN:

We've said that we'll announce our health and hospitals policy very soon.

DAVID SPEERS:

There's an opportunity tonight though

BILL SHORTEN:

There is, there is...

DAVID SPEERS:

We’ve got a question here, will you keep the freeze or not?

 

BILL SHORTEN:

David to be fair, you've asked me that a number of times. We will - in a number of interviews - we will, and what I'm showing tonight, I get how everyday people, people on a pension are having to make ends meet, and I'm telling you it's a very clear flag post. A very clear sign. I am deeply sceptical at the tax, and the logic of the taxpayer or for sick people, freezing the rebate the GP's get, which means the GP's are having to pay for increased costs of medicines and provisions and no increase to them from the system, that will force the GP's into have to introduce a backdoor GP tax, and Labor is bitterly opposed to that. So you can count on us to looking after your health care.

PRIME MINISTER:

David, if I could just add, add a couple of important pieces of news on that. Firstly it is, it is important to remember the freeze on the, the Medicare Benefits schedule, what doctors get from the government for seeing a patient, that began in 2013 under the Labor Government, and it's been continued in order to enable more resources to go elsewhere into the health system, such as increasing contributions to hospitals. But it's important to say, to let you know, it's important news from today that Susan Ley, our health Minister has reached agreement with the pathologist, Pathology Australia, and they will be continuing to bulk-bill. So the concern that has been expressed about patients who go to have their blood tests done and so forth, being charged extra, not being bulk billed is, that concern is gone, the pathologists have agreed to continue bulk billing.

BILL SHORTEN:

David, some days it's hard being the opposition, Mr Turnbull says that any tough decisions they've made, any hard decisions are all Labor's fault, Mr Turnbull doesn't own even Mr Abbott's decisions so I don't see why he gets to leap frog and own our term in Government. The truth of the matter is that in Australia we don't want a two class health system, people on fixed incomes for the last three years always have the prospect of the Government cutting payments in the medical system. I can promise to you that we will do better than the Liberals in terms of funding the Medicare system because Labor believes in Medicare full stop.

DAVID SPEERS:

Can I just pick up on this issue about whether the GP payment continues to be frozen or not? Do you accept Mr Turnbull that it is going to put up the cost of going to see the doctor overtime?

PRIME MINISTER:

Well David what we've seen is the Medicare benefit schedule - the amount $37.05 plus $6 for bulk billing if you live in the city and $9 outside of the cities, that payment has been frozen since 2013, it hasn't increased in other words since 2013 when Labor froze it and we've continued with that as a budgetary measure. Now what has happened is that bulk billing has in fact increased, so the doctors are being able to absorb that, and being able to, as they manage their finances, and that's going to be -

DAVID SPEERS?

But overtime that's going to become harder for them to do?

PRIME MINISTER:

Well David we will continue to review it but we are very pressured in terms of costs, we've committed as you know an additional $2.9 billion to hospitals, public hospitals, that is a very important claim on the budget, but I can assure you that what we're seeking to do everywhere is to make sure that patients get great service. I'll give you an example, of the way in which we are seeking to improve the way health is delivered through primary health. If I can just make this one point, as you know much of our health dollar is spent on patients with chronic illnesses, with many illnesses, what we're doing is trialling and starting to introduce a health care home system at the primary health level, with GPs, where a doctor will take responsibility for a patient who has got chronic conditions and be paid quarterly for coordinating their care, and we believe that will result in much more effective care. We're working very hard to make sure your health system, our health system works better for everybody.

DAVID SPEERS:

Okay, thank you Abbey for that question. I think we got somewhere there. Let's take a question from you Sir.

QUESTION:

Good evening gentleman, my name is Michael, I work in the electrical industry. My question is basically that I vote for a government to govern. The Abbott government had an agenda to privatise a lot of Australia's assets for example Darwin Harbour, the NSW Government has an agenda of privatisation and I'm just wondering whether your government Mr Turnbull, or your government Mr Shorten, will pursue this agenda, if so why would we (inaudible) government?

DAVID SPEERS:

You don't want any more privatisation?

QUESTION:

Absolutely not.

DAVID SPEERS:

Mr Shorten, you first.

BILL SHORTEN:

Thank you, and thanks for the work that electricians do in our electrical system. For me the privatisation tide has probably gone too far. The pendulum has swung too far in favour of that. I actually think that what we need is to maintain quality services, and I've seen two or three examples of it I've got some concerns about. Medibank was sold off by this government. My concern is that the benefits payable have shrunk. I'm concerned that when you privatise in the health care system, Medicare in particular and the payments system, which the government has flagged an interest in, they're spending $5 million with a task force looking at how they could sell the payments system. But when you privatise important propositions like key elements of Medicare what you do is instead of the boss being the people of Australia, you've also got to find money in the health care system to pay the shareholders of the private company domestically or foreign who buys it. You know there's a basic debate going on in this election, $50billion worth of tax cuts over 10 years to companies up to a billion dollars or do you fund our schools and hospitals? Do you believe that in life if you just look after the top 1% with tax cuts of $17,000 if you earn a million dollars in the budget, or do you actually say that if you look after apprentices if you keep TAFEs strong, if you don't have such large private funding or private operators in vocational education that you'll actually start restoring community? I believe that an economy shouldn't govern the community. I believe the community governs the economy.

DAVID SPEERS:

Alright, Mr Turnbull.

PRIME MINISTER:

Well let me say thank you for your question and again, thank god for the sparkies, great work. Can I just say to you that in terms of privatisation the Darwin Harbour of course was the Northern Territory Government asset, and the big businesses belonging to the Commonwealth Government have been privatised, some of them by Labor Government like Qantas and the Commonwealth Bank, some of them by Liberal Governments like Telstra. So the privatisation is more of a live issues at the state government level. But let me just address what bill said about business. You see the key objective for all of us should be to ensure that our economy grows and that you have better, you have more jobs, more opportunities of a job, and better paying jobs. That's what we seek so that our children and our grandchildren and all of us can realise us and our dreams and our opportunities. We need that economic growth.

DAVID SPEERS:

On privatisation, Prime Minister Turnbull -

 

PRIME MINISTER:

As I was saying, it is really an issue for state government's David.

DAVID SPEERS:

Well what about, can I throw some examples in - Australia Post -

PRIME MINISTER

Well Australia Post is not on the agenda for privatisation -

DAVID SPEERS:

You would never sell it?

PRIME MINISTER:

Well it is, I don't know if you've looked at the accounts of Australia Post, because it is a long way away from being able to be sold. And I think what you find in the future David with Australia post is that it is a business in enormous transition, I think it is struggling to get back into profitability and the public service part of Australia Post is one that will remain in public ownership forever because I honestly don't see how it could be operated any other way -

DAVID SPEERS:

But another part could be sold?

PRIME MINISTER:

Well people have talked about the parcels business, but I think if you sold the parcels business or the delivery business then you would undermine the viability of the rest of it, so we have no plans, let me be quite clear, we have no plans to privatise Australia Post I see no prospect whatsoever of Australia Post being privatised or being ‘privatisable’, within the next term of government, what happens in the far off future who knows.

 

DAVID SPEERS:

And what about ASC? The Australian Submarine Corporation.

PRIME MINISTER:

That is a again a government owned business that is critically part of the whole negotiations with respect to the construction of the new submarines -

DAVID SPEERS:

Could you privatise it?

PRIME MINISTER:

It is, I think what will happen David is that we will enter into agreements with the French company that is working with us to design the submarines and some of the assets of the submarine corporation will be leased to a new venture, a joint venture, the assets, the fundamental assets of Australian Submarine Corporation will always remain under Australian government ownership.

DAVID SPEERS:

Bill Shorten I can see you itching to get in on this. These two, Australia Post and ASC?

BILL SHORTEN:

A Labor Government is not going to sell Australia Post.

DAVID SPEERS:

Or ASC?

BILL SHORTEN:

The case hasn't been made to sell ASC, especially now it's doing crucial defence, but if Mr Turnbull could demonstrate his commitment about assets in public hands, all I ask him please don't sell Australian Hearing Services, there's tens of thousands of people who rely on Australian Hearing Services, we do not, Labor does not support Australian Hearing Services being privatised.

DAVID SPEERS:

Well let's see if Mr Turnbull will give a commitment on that one way or another.

PRIME MINISTER:

The commitment I will give is to ensure that people with hearing disabilities get fantastic service, get the right services now we are not going to get caught into an ideological about the privatisation of one service or another, particularly of that kind. If we can do a better job for Australian's with hearing disabilities with part of those services being delivered by the private sector than we would.

BILL SHORTEN:

David it's ideological just to want to sell things. It is not ideological to want to make sure that hearing impaired people get government provided services. Australian's pay their -

DAVID SPEERS:

What if they get better services in private hands?

BILL SHORTEN:

Well the problem is that once you, and it goes back to that point that I made in my opening about privatising key parts of our Medicare safety net. Once you start requiring that every person who is sick has to find money not just to pay for the service but to pay for the profits to the shareholders you start creating a cost increase. America has more - David sorry just very quick, America has a system where if you're genuinely poor you've got the basic level of service, and above that it's your credit card that determines your care. And the thing is America pays $17 in every hundred, 17% of its economic output in healthcare. In Australia we pay just over 10%, so a government run propositions are not always bad for healthcare or the bottom line.

DAVID SPEERS:

Gina, next question thank you.

QUESTION:

Good evening Sirs, my name is Gina, the Government of Bosnia has issued a press statement that it intends to extradite 500 Australians into Bosnia, and as such there has been a clamour for the amendment of Australia's No-Evidence Extradition Law. What is your stance on this and how can you protect Australian's who may be wrongfully subjected to extradition requests, example is Kronos Labonie (sic) the Australian Canberra man, he was indicted and later on he was arrested in Canberra and there is also the case of Hercules Baile (sic) NSW man, Hugh Raymond Griffiths. Thank you.

DAVID SPEERS:

Thanks Gina.

PRIME MINISTER:

Well if I could just say that Australia's extradition laws are not no evidence laws so a person whose extradition is sought in Australia has the protection of the Australian courts. So with respect the premise of the question is not right but we do have extradition laws and of course we seek to extradite people from other countries to Australia and it is important that there is a mutual recognition of extradition.

BILL SHORTEN:

Listen I agree with what Mr Turnbull has said there. Just a couple of other little points. We've got a lot of people who came to Australia after the terrible Balkan conflict in the early 90s. Terrible things were done to people there's a lot of anger and a lot of history in some of the decisions being made by courts in Bosnia, Croatia, in the Hague, in Serbia. It's a very difficult time. I'm lucky in my electorate I have a lot of Serbian Australians, Croatian Australians, Bosnian Australians. I get that there is two sides of every argument and so I just say that I understand the point, I'd like to have a quick chat to you afterwards to get the name of the people because clearly it's causing people you know some personal angst, and I certainly agree with what Mr Turnbull has said but I just get that if you've got individuals that are being squeezed by a system that we just need to make sure that we respect all the views and we can try and work through so they've got a clear understanding of their rights and position.

DAVID SPEERS:

Next question from Julie.

QUESTION:

I'd like to talk to you on behalf of the people who are under the $80,000 and are quite upset because they didn't get any tax cuts, I actually can't see why the government can't do more about superannuation, now seriously superannuation is just, it's not a tax cut, it's peoples own money, and when you're talking about people under that bracket we're seeing so many young families who need deposits to get into a home. Superannuation is supposed to be your retirement fund, superannuation does nothing. It'll be better off either for young people particularly in that tax bracket who could access a good portion, or even all to get themselves into a home, or even my husband and I have been in a home for 28 years and we're down to our last $100,000 and honestly it has taken 28 years - with children, and all the things that come along, surely you know we deserve to be able to get access to our own money and I mean this is also helping families. I mean we're talking about big business, we're talking about children and schooling, children need a home to live in and 20 years from now if those people haven't got into the housing market they won't be able to even afford the rent, so is the government going to pick up the rent? Like you're supposed to be trying to help us, and if we're going to talk about jobs and growth let's get rooves over people’s heads and families organised and I mean this will also help the crime situation as well. I mean if you've got good families at home with a roof over their head and you know, just that help, it's not going to cost the government to help people. And this can be policed, I mean we know that can be policed. So I just want to know who's going to help.

DAVID SPEERS:

Alright, we'll go to you first, Mr Turnbull, on that. Releasing the super early to borrow for a home...

PRIME MINISTER:

Thank you very much and I understand the sense of satisfaction you must feel as you've been chipping away at that mortgage over those 28 years. So, great work. Look, can I say, you talked about rent, and you know within half an hours' drive of where we are here at Windsor, there are 69,000 families renting their home. Every single one of them will see their rents increase if Bill becomes Prime Minister. Because what he is planning to do, is to eliminate negative gearing, increase capital gains tax by 50 per cent, and as you've heard today from the Real Estate Institute, from John Symond - from Aussie John, that is going to have the impact of putting up rents and reducing the amount of rental property. So, what we believe - we believe there should be more rental property available...

 

DAVID SPEERS:

Sorry to interrupt. We're talking about accessing superannuation funds to buy a home.

PRIME MINISTER:

Can I say, the purpose of superannuation is to enable people to make - to save money, so that they can support themselves in greater dignity and comfort when they're in retirement. And if they were taking that out in the course of their life before they retired, then of course, they wouldn't have the money to save at the end.

QUESTION:

Can I just say to you, if you had a home and you were able to pay your superannuation into it, I'm not as smart a man as what you are, and you know the amount of interest you would save by putting that into it, and the amount of time that you could save paying that home off, while you've got young children you're trying to school and everything else. I think it's a bit of a fair go for the people, particularly in that tax bracket. Fair enough we need big business, we need schooling, but we need a home to live in and a roof over the children's heads. And I really think that you government people can sit down and work out something because it's ridiculous - that money is just pointless. Superannuation is accountable to markets, it is taxed, and the amount you would save in interest, in putting that into your home or the amount that a young person getting into the market to have their deposit in a home - the amount they would save, and the fact that they might not even get into a home if they don't have that deposit - superannuation won't do anything. Superannuation will be paying the rent because they won't be able to afford a home.

 

DAVID SPEERS:

Thanks Julie. Just on that, Mr Turnbull. Accessing super, are you saying no?

PRIME MINISTER:

The purpose of superannuation is to provide for people in retirement and if you allow super to be drawn out before people retire and access for other purposes, then they will not have that money available to them, or maybe not have that money available to them when they retire, and the whole purpose...

QUESTION:

Are you going to pay the rent, Mr Turnbull?

DAVID SPEERS:

Let's see what Bill Shorten thinks of the idea.

BILL SHORTEN:

I'll just answer your question very directly. Labor has no plans to allow people to use their super for a housing deposit, which is the question you're asking. So, as much as I'd like everyone to like me on everything I say, the nature of leadership is that you can't always tell people that. But you made another point, which I want to go to. It's about housing affordability and about the Budget. I think it is a joke that Mr Turnbull's Budget has meant that - they've cancelled the higher deficit levy, even though there's still a deficit that they've tripled...

DAVID SPEERS:

We're getting off the question a little but here. We've got to get through some more questions, I apologise.

BILL SHORTEN:

No, in all fairness, David, people want to be treated as intelligent. I'll answer the question quickly. But you are right - it is a joke that someone who earns $1 million a year, courtesy of this Government, will pay $17,000 less tax next year. But you who earn less than $80,000 - there is nothing there for you. The second point I make is about housing affordability. There are a number of mechanisms where we can improve housing affordability. Mr Turnbull ran a sort of a scare argument. The real estate agents of Australia are not happy, but Labor is not going to continue putting $10 billion plus of taxpayer money into negative gearing. Why should a first homeowner have to compete on an un-level playing field with someone who's buying their fifth or tenth property, being subsidised by you. It's materialised today that taxpayers on average are paying $310 in tax each year so that some people can negatively gear their houses, which makes it harder for you to get into the market. So I haven't told you what you want to hear, but we at least in Labor have a plan to recognise that the Budget shouldn't just be for the top end of Australia and hope that the results trickle down to everyone else.

DAVID SPEERS:

Let's just clear this up. It's a pretty big issue in the campaign - negative gearing. Your policy - will it push up rents as the Prime Minister suggests?

BILL SHORTEN:

No we do not believe it will push up rents, and furthermore, people don't have to take our word for the merit of our policy. I understand that Mr Turnbull has the backing of real estate agents, and why wouldn't the big real estate agent corporations oppose what we're doing? Their business model relies on taxpayer subsidies coming from all taxpayers for their business model. So by contrast, because Mr Turnbull said we're cancelling negative gearing, we're not. We're just not. First of all, it's not retrospective...

DAVID SPEERS:

How do you know Mr Turnbull, it will push up rents?

BILL SHORTEN:

Malcolm did say that we're cancelling negative gearing. It'll still be available for new housing, but the point is, why should the taxpayer - every taxpayer - the millions of people who go to work - subsidise a tax subsidy, which only some people get to use?

 

DAVID SPEERS:

How do you know it will push up rents, the Labor policy?

PRIME MINISTER:

Well because the people who understand the property market and anyone with common sense knows that it will. If you pull up to a third of the buyers out of the market, the value of property will come down, and if you say - if you make it harder for investors to buy properties, which of course they buy to rent, then there will be fewer properties to rent, the investors that are left will have to seek a higher return, and this is exactly what happened in the '80s when Paul Keating banned negative gearing for a period before Bob Hawke realised what a disaster it was and had to turn it back. Everyone's entitled to his opinion, but if any of us wanted to get a view on what the value of our property was, or what it could rent for, I think we'd talk to real estate agents rather than politicians. And the real estate agents are all at one. They know what Labor's policy will do is lower home values and jack up rents.

BILL SHORTEN:

Well let's be straight. If you want to know for independent views, let's go to the Reserve Bank of Australia. They're good enough to set our monetary policy in Australia. They are truly independent. They're not making a dollar out of the negative gearing tax subsidy. They're genuinely independent. And we've seen from minutes released by them that they view that the sort of policy we're advancing is sensible. Jeff Kennett - he's never voted Labor in his life. He thinks what we're doing is sensible. Joe Hockey, who was good enough to be made Ambassador to America - great job if you can get it - he said in his parting speech, "Well, maybe we should have looked at negative gearing". The Treasurer - the current Treasurer, Mr Morrison - said in Parliament in February or March, there are excesses in the system. No, I think the real challenge here is, I respect the right of the real estate industry to preserve a business model, which is subsidised by the taxpayers of Australia, but merely because they have a vested interest doesn't mean I have to accept that they decide tax policy and the best interests of the nation.

DAVID SPEERS:

Just before we leave this issue, are there excesses in the system?

PRIME MINISTER:

David, there are 48,000 taxpayers within half an hours' drive of where we're standing now who are negative gearing. And 30,000 of them earn $80,000 a year or less. 70 per cent of the people who negative gear own one property. 20 per cent own two. Bill's proposition that this is all about millionaires is just dead wrong. And what he said about tax cuts for millionaires, I might say, was looked at by the ABC's Fact Checker, and found to be misleading, as it is.

DAVID SPEERS:

We've got to move on to another question.

BILL SHORTEN:

Mr Turnbull said that somehow negative gearing is this Robin Hood style system, which benefits the less well advantaged. Please. A crocodile wouldn't swallow that. Do you know that some of the numbers that have been put forward in negative gearing - and to be fair, while Mr Turnbull didn't answer David's question about are there excesses in the system, the Treasurer said so. But even more importantly, and I just submit it to your common sense - how is it that there's over 60,000 people who after negatively gearing, have no taxable income at all? They don't even pay the Medicare levy. What bank in Australia lends money to people who have no money? It's nonsense. What happens is the current system - and it is not illegal, and I make no judgement - but the current system allows some people to get all their pre-negative gearing income and help minimise it down to zero. Australia has to make choices.

DAVID SPEERS:

Okay we need to move on. But I'll just get a very quick response on that. They may not be within half an hours' drive of here, but there are some excesses in the system - do you agree, as your Treasurer said?

PRIME MINISTER:

Well the Reserve Bank, the Council of Financial Regulators, dialled down the amount of money that the banks can lend to people for purchasing investment properties last year. And that is actually seen a reduction in property prices.

 

DAVID SPEERS:

So the excesses are fixed.

PRIME MINISTER:

That's the better way to deal with it - let the prudential regulators deal with it.

DAVID SPEERS:

So no excesses.

PRIME MINISTER:

Yes, that's right, the system is well managed. Can I just say this, what Bill is talking about here is a massive experiment - a reckless experiment with the biggest asset class in Australia, the biggest asset class in Australia, and the biggest asset belonging to most Australian families.

DAVID SPEERS:

Alright thank you and next question from Brian.

QUESTION:

My name is Brian. Like many Australians, I have a mortgage. Market forces have failed to stop the banks increasing interest rates, while the Reserve Bank has been cutting interest rates. What are your views on bank regulation?

DAVID SPEERS:

Mr Turnbull.

PRIME MINISTER:

Thank you, Brian. What you've made is a very powerful argument in favour of competition between the banks and we have seen with the latest rate cut, the banks responding with reductions in their interest rates. But competition is the key, competition is the key. Competition has seen us get cheaper finance, it's also seen us get access - if you look at other sectors like the telecom sector - access to much cheaper connectivity and telecommunications services. So competition is the key. Our banks in Australia are highly regulated. They've had some real issues and they're addressing them. As you know, we've given ASIC additional powers to deal with that. We are very, very focussed on ensuring our banks remain strong, they are highly regulated, and they deliver a good service to Australians. And I can assure you, we keep a very, very close eye on them.

DAVID SPEERS:

Mr Shorten.

BILL SHORTEN:

I agree that competition is a good thing, and in banking it is very important. But anyone who says that our banking system is working and humming along just sweet, speak to someone who was insured with Comm-Insure and didn't get their payment. I think it is outrageous that people can buy an insurance policy with a big bank, and then have people within that bank when you make a claim, actively organise against denying you the claim. It is a problem in our banking system. I believe that we are well overdue and we've waited and waited to see the banks get their own house in order, but I think it is well overdue to have a Royal Commission into Australia's banks, because I can't buy the logic that somehow having an investigation to improve the ethical standards to improve the culture of banking would somehow undermine the business model. So one thing we would do is have a Royal Commission into our banking sector. Also, I have to say, when we talk about competition, it drives me crazy that when you use the ATM of another bank, you've got to pay that withdrawal fee. It drives me crazy when the formal monetary policy goes down, we've seen it in home loans to an extent, which is good, but when it comes to your credit card, why is it that the banks are stubbornly keeping credit card interest rates 12 - 14 per cent higher? I think these banks do not feel enough competitive pressure. We've had the foreign banks come in, but the reality is the four Australian banks saw them off. So I think there is a problem and I think one solution will be a Royal Commission into the banking sector, because I tell you what, that'll straighten up their practices inside.

DAVID SPEERS:

Brian, is a Royal Commission what you're after?

 

QUESTION:

My question was quite simple. The banks have already dealt with market forces. They're putting interest rates up. The Reserve Bank is cutting interest rates. Why can't the Government do something about making the banks lower interest rates as the Reserve has done?

PRIME MINISTER:

Brian, mortgage rates came down. The response of the banks was to lower rates after the Reserve Bank cut the cash rate. Can I just say, just with respect to what Bill said about the banks. As I said in fact at Westpac's 199th Birthday recently, I gave the Westpac and the other banks there a bit of a lecture on some important cultural changes they needed to make. They needed to be more customer focussed and they needed to ensure that people were promoted and rewarded based on their commitment to customers, not simply on how much money they made. They've taken that on board and we've given the regulator, ASIC, which has got all the powers of a Royal Commission and a lot more, greater resources to ensure that they do the right thing. So we're right onto that. Let me just say this to you. We have got an economy, a national economy, which we want to grow. We want to see more investment, we want to see more jobs. That's what my national economic plan is all about. We are in however, globally uncertain times. Lots of opportunities, but plenty of challenges. You only have to look at the TV news to see that. Now our banking system is a very important part of our financial stability. What Bill is proposing, as he said in an article he had in the Telegraph the other day, he said in his heading, "Time to put the banks in the dock". Now "the dock" is where the criminal stands - the accused person stands in a criminal trial. So here you've got Bill, who wants to be Prime Minister of Australia, who says you should line the banks up as though they're accused of a crime, as though they're all criminals. Now I believe, let me just say to you want to be very careful we need to be very careful what we wish for, here. We have got a strong economy - it's strong but it needs clear, disciplined leadership, economic leadership; it needs a clear economic plan that is responsible and steady...

DAVID SPEERS:

Okay.

PRIME MINISTER:

And we will deliver that, if we are returned to government on the 2nd of July.

DAVID SPEERS:

I think there is some sentiment in the room for banks... aren't necessarily squeaky clean... Bill Shorten, are you suggesting that they should be put in the dock and are therefore criminals, as the Prime Minister's suggested?

BILL SHORTEN:

No, I'm not saying banks are criminals but what I am saying is...

PRIME MINISTER:

They should go in the dock?

BILL SHORTEN:

Well, I...

PRIME MINISTER:

Why would you put them in the dock?

BILL SHORTEN:

Oh, I bet they just went home and changed their practices after a lecture from you but, in all seriousness, I'm not saying that but what I am saying is how many scandals does it take before a Liberal Government will say 'actually, you need more than a telling off; maybe you need to have a Royal Commission to look at is there a pathology across the banking sector; are these problems just one-off with a rogue operator or is there something wrong which needs to improve in the culture of banking. I don't buy the argument that seeking better ethical standards from our banks will undermine the stability of banks - I just don't buy that.

 

PRIME MINISTER:

Well let me tell you, the only beneficiaries from a banking Royal Commission, Bill, will be the legal profession - it'll go years and years, cost hundreds of millions of dollars and then it'll write a report. What we've done is taken action, right now. We've given the regulator...

DAVID SPEERS:

Could you say that about all Royal Commissions, though?

BILL SHORTEN:

Yeah, I was going to say, a lot of rich lawyers out of the union Royal Commission.

PRIME MINISTER:

Well, I can say to you, that... well, okay... well, Bill's raised the union Royal Commission and that's fair to raise it. Let me make this point. We believe that there should be, in important industries, strong regulation where it's required. Now, with banks you've got APRA, you've got the Reserve Bank, you've got ASIC and they've got plenty of teeth and we've given them resources to have more and we're onto the issues, CommInsure and all of these matters are being dealt with - real action, right now; not waiting for years. Now, with the unions... and Bill's a former leader of the AWU, as we know... with the unions, we have seen a culture of lawlessness in the construction sector; it employs a million Australians; the CFMEU have got over a hundred officials on more than a thousand breaches of industrial law before the courts and one of the issues, in this election... and if we're successful then we will reintroduce the Building and Construction Commission, which will restore the rule of law in the construction sector and that will restore proper regulation, ensure the law is obeyed and that'll be better for everyone - better for Sunny, better for everyone in the construction sector.

DAVID SPEERS:

We need to whip through quite a few more questions. Next one from Nicole.

QUESTION:

I'm actually going to ask about the arts sector... had cut a lot of funding to it. I'm a fine arts portrait photographer; this is my interest. I'm asking is either party intending to develop evidence-based arts policies and what are you intending to do to fix the chaos that has been caused by the funding cuts of the last two years to individual artists and to key small to medium infrastructures?

DAVID SPEERS:

Artists - Bill Shorten, to you first.

BILL SHORTEN:

Well, one thing I can promise the arts community is I won't put George Brandis, if elected, in charge of arts funding. I believe in the Australia Council. I actually think that what the Government did, by taking some of the funding from the Australia, which was the peak body for funding arts, and giving it to the Minister to allocate to his particular topics... I don't think that's good politics and I don't think it's good for the arts community. The truth of the matter is that, in the arts industry, it's not just the top national companies; there's all second-tier companies and the grassroots arts organisations. Today, if you read Fairfax, if you go online and read Fairfax, the arts community across Australia is reeling from unwarmed cuts. By contrast, Labor will reverse a range of these cuts. We're also committed to properly funding the ABC because I think that's important for a diverse... in this country and, might I add, one of the greatest sources of the performing arts and the creative arts in Australia is teachers in our school system who then, in their own time as well as... you know, pursue their passions and their desires... if we have proper funding of our schools, it'll build a deeper and richer basis for the arts across all our schools. I want every child in Australia to have the opportunity learn a musical instrument, to be engaged in drama. Only Labor has got funded policies not only to look after the arts community in the area of grants but to give every Aussie kid the chance to fall in love with the arts at school, which they don't get right now.

DAVID SPEERS:

Mr Turnbull?

PRIME MINISTER:

Yeah, thank you very much, David. Firstly, in terms of school education, can I just say our commitment to school education is enormous - it is growing; it is at record levels; we are committed to spending $74 billion, over the next four years, on school education; Bill is proposing to spend 78, so, yes, he's proposing to spend more, as he is on most things and that's why he's got $62 billion of spending he hasn't got any funding for. Now, on the arts, there has been some money taken from the arts council so that can be allocated to a wider range of arts organisations, particularly in regional Australia, who the Government has believed... we have a new minister, Mitch Fifield, of course, who's also Communications minister... the Government believes have been left out because they haven't been connected with the big companies and the big organisations in the cities, so, yes, totally committed to supporting the arts but wanting to see the dollar go further, particular into regional Australia.

DAVID SPEERS:

The next question from Ray.

QUESTION:

Yeah, good evening gentlemen. Just a quick question: will you be increasing the percentage of funding for smaller regional town hospitals. We've got tremendous hospitals, here in Sydney and all the major capitals, but when a population is getting older such as, say Nelson Bay or Noosa or all those places... those people seem to have to travel long distances to get a more professional sort of outcome on their health. Will you be increasing or decreasing the percentage?

DAVID SPEERS:

To you first, Mr Turnbull?

PRIME MINISTER:

Well, thank you. As you know, the public hospitals are administered by the states. We provide about 45 per cent of the funding for those hospitals and it growing at six and a half (6.5) per cent per annum in accordance with the deal that we did with the states at the recent COAG meeting - an additional $2.9 billion that I committed to that - so we’re very committed to supporting public hospitals but we're also committed to ensuring that we get the... the patients get the best service and the best value from those public hospitals but you're right to be concerned about services across the state and I can assure you my side of politics represents almost all of the regional Australian seats - we have the widest range, between the Liberals and the Nationals - and I can assure you that country hospitals, in particular, are a matter of very, very keen interest to my colleagues in the Coalition party Room.

DAVID SPEERS:

Mr Shorten?

BILL SHORTEN:

The short answer to your question is yes. The longer answer is how we do that and Mr Turnbull made a sort of a throwaway remark 'oh well, there's Bill; he’s wanting to spend money on hospitals and schools' - he's right; I do - but what I also could do to reassure you to say that when I say we want spend more on hospitals, I want to explain to you very quickly how we pay for it, because I won't spend billions of dollars on propping up Tony Abbott's inefficient climate-change schemes to pay big polluters to pollute more, so there's billions saved. What I'll also do is I won't spend $160 million on a marriage-equality plebiscite which even Mr Turnbull didn't support until the day before he became the Leader.

DAVID SPEERS:

Just back on regional hospitals if...

BILL SHORTEN:

No but, in order to say that we'll spend something, Mr Turnbull gave a free opinion about whether or not we were spending more on those - we will; we will spend more on the schools and the hospitals  and we'll pay for it by cutting wasteful Government expenditure. Australia doesn't need to pay $160 million for a plebiscite which won't even bind the Members of Parliament; instead, we'll just let the Parliamentarians do their day job - we're there every day; we can have a vote; we do it quite often.

PRIME MINISTER:

You're a long way from the regional hospitals.

BILL SHORTEN:

No but it is how you pay for things.

DAVID SPEERS:

Okay, well, you will... you will pay more...

BILL SHORTEN:

Do you know how we'll pay for hospitals and schools?

DAVID SPEERS:

Just very quickly?

BILL SHORTEN:

We won't give a $50-billion tax cut to multinational companies who'll send that offshore...

DAVID SPEERS:

Okay...

BILL SHORTEN:

To shareholders.

DAVID SPEERS:

Let's get a question from Samantha.

QUESTION:

Good evening. I'm part of a small family; I'm a wife and I have two young children. I'm currently looking at going back to work from maternity leave, at the moment, and i actually worked it out that, for me to go back to work fulltime, I'm going to be paying over $45,000 a year in child care, so I'll be working... I'm on a fairly decent wage for this area and I'd be working for $2 an hour after tax is taken out and child care. Is there anything that you can do to help small families such as myself?

DAVID SPEERS:

I’ll let you go first on this one, Mr Shorten.

BILL SHORTEN:

Whilst we haven't announced our final childcare policy, what I can say is this: we understand that childcare affordability is a giant handbrake on people being able to return to work; we understand the costs are going up all the time. Currently, with the Child Care Rebate and the Child Care Benefit, depending on your income and circumstances, you can get a rebate of 50 per cent of your expenses, up to seven and half K ($7500) but the problem is child care, each week, in many areas is... that doesn't begin to match it, so what we are looking at is we've decided to adopt the same funding envelope that the Government has... the Government's going to put some extra money in but we're not convinced of is that the Government's got it right because they're looking at certain people in certain income brackets. We’re going to try and use that same money to people who earn between up to 60, 70 thousand dollars ($60,000, $70,000), $80, 000, because I think that’s where the greatest pressure on childcare costs are.

DAVID SPEERS:

Mr Turnbull?

PRIME MINISTER:

Well, thank you, and I share your, share your concern. I understand as a grandfather with a grandson that goes to childcare, and his mum's working as a teacher. I understand very much the challenges that you face. And we're addressing that. What we've, in our policy, our change is to change the two childcare benefits into one, and increase the percentage of subsidy for people on lower incomes up to 85% and then tapering down as incomes become higher. But to removing that cap on, other than for people on very high incomes. So we are very focussed on making sure that there is more support, and we will deliver. More support. If we have, if we can get its passage through the Senate of course, that the issue and I'm encouraged that Bill seems to be on board, at least with the objectives. But what we want to do is make sure that you get more support, particularly families on lower and lower-middle incomes, because female participation in the workforce is critically important for the economy, it is all part of our national economic plan to deliver stronger growth and more jobs to ensure that more women are able to stay engaged with the workforce right throughout their lives, and one of the changes we're making in superannuation for example. If you're out of the workforce for a few years, looking after the kids, when you come back in, under our changes you'll be able to catch up and use the concessional caps that you couldn't use because you weren’t in work, use them to catch up when you're back in work. So, right on board, and I can assure you, your concerns are our concerns and we are going to deliver a better childcare system for you.

BILL SHORTEN:

That sounds good, I'll be very quick, but unfortunately the Government that Mr Turnbull leads has decided to delay their childcare package by a year, and instead provide people who earn high net incomes tax relief. So I guess it's all about priorities. We won't be delaying out childcare package, and we won't be doing it on the basis that we think that people trying to get back to work need more encouragement, and people who already earn high incomes probably don't need big tax cuts.

DAVID SPEERS:

Let's get our next question from… Your name? Aseafa.

QUESTION:

My name is Aseafa, Prime Minister, I just ask a question which touches our grandchildren, you love this [inaudible], I listen to you, you always talk about your grandchildren, grandchildren. So this question will touch our grandchildren, in this nation. Your theme for this election says 'jobs and growth', there is no much funding in this budget for education, how we can educate our society to create jobs and a secure growth, unless we invest much in our education system? And lucky enough, thanks that we are living in a country which is one of the richest land on the planet, so why not we invest in our children?

PRIME MINISTER:

Well Aseafa, we do. And as I was saying earlier, we're spending, the federal government is spending record amounts on education. But let me say to you Aseafa, what we're focused on, what you want, is for your grandchildren to have a fantastic education, just like I want my grandchildren to have a great education and achieve all their dreams, and what we need to be focussing on is not who spends the most money, but which party, which Government, which leader will get the best outcomes out of education. Now one of the things we're doing with our education policy, apart from committing very large sums of money to it, what we're doing is ensuring that we get better outcomes, because we have been, there's no question, we’ve spent, increased spending a lot in real terms over the last 20 years. But outcomes, student performance is, has deteriorated and the gap between the best students and the worst students in terms of educational attainment has widened. So we're going to require children to be assessed at 5 when they come in, not a test, they're too little to have a test, but to be assessed on reading and understanding, basic numeracy, so the teacher can work out who's in the middle of the pack, who's ahead, who's behind, and then make sure the kids who have fallen behind already are able to catch up. Because testing them at 9, we believe is too late. So we are determined to make sure that every child in Australia has a great education, has a great teacher. And we believe that if we focus on the outcomes, and making sure your little grandchildren, and my little grandchildren, all of the grandchildren get a terrific education and have great teachers and great support then they'll achieve their dreams. Everything, including all the wonderful dreams Aseafa, you have for your grandchildren.

DAVID SPEERS:

Mr Shorten?

BILL SHORTEN:

I've got three kids at school, as a parent I know how important it is that kids get the best education possible. But what I won't do is stand here and tell you that money doesn't matter. Of course it matters. What we've done, Labor, is have a look at what are the resources that the most successful schools have? The top one eighth? And we've set ourselves on, as a direction for this country, that all schools should be resourced on the basis of the needs of kids up to what a high performing schools resources are. Anyone that tells you that money doesn't matter in education, is seeling you, is selling you a pig in a pope. That's not right. It's great that Mr Turnbull wants the 5 year olds to sit test, and you know that’s fine by me if that's the go. But what I'm interested in, is that the 5's, the 6's, the 7's, the 8's, right through their school years, that they have actually access to language classes. That they have access to music classes. That the kids who aren't doing well at school, or the kids with special needs, that they get that extra attention. That the bright kids get stretched, because one size doesn't fit all. You know we talk about plans in this country, my plan for economic growth, Labor's vision for the future, is that 95% of our kids graduate year 12 by 2012, that we're back in the top 5 education school systems in the world by 2025, and it's all about choices. Did you know in Australia that the...

DAVID SPEERS:

Just briefly Mr Shorten, we are nearly out of time..

BILL SHORTEN:

The negative gearing and capital gains tax education, which Mr Turnbull's declared is vital to the future of Australian democracy and out system. We spend more in tax payer subsidy on that, then we do on childcare in this country? Or on higher education? Judge this gentleman and myself on our priorities, for me its education first and tax cuts to big companies second.

DAVID SPEERS:

Can I just jump in here? Mr Turnbull, would you spend the extra dollars if you could?

PRIME MINISTER:

Well David, we would spend the extra dollars if we saw that they would have the impact, that we'd get a good impact, and educational...

DAVID SPEERS:

But this is a key difference, you don't believe the extra dollars will make a difference?

PRIME MINISTER:

No, no David, can I just say this to you. I believe we can get the outcomes we need, the great outcomes for Aseafa's grandchildren, with the very substantial funding we have by insisting on there being higher standards and supporting, as we have been doing, supporting the best teachers, ensuring that they're rewarded and encouraged. Now right across the board, we got, Bill says, tries to suggest that I'm saying money doesn't matter, well of course it does. That is, that is, that is absurd. What we, we know that we need to invest in schools, and we are, we are investing more than…

DAVID SPEERS:

But didn't the Gonski Committee say every school needs to be at a certain level?

PRIME MINISTER:

No what David said, what David Gonski said, is that the funding should be needs based, and you should focus on that and we…

DAVID SPEERS:

Hitting a student resource standard…

PRIME MINISTER:

We totally, we totally agree with that. But the, but the relevant point is, and I've got to say this, is that what the Gillard Government entered into was not consistent needs based funding across Australia, they entered into 27 inconsistent funding arrangements, and what we have done is committed record levels of funding, we're going to demand high standards, so the federal government will be saying to the States and the Territories, you want our money, right, we've got to make sure that we're getting better outcomes from our schools, and we will do that and we will come up with, as we've agreed with the States, next year a consistent national funding model that ensures that we achieve the objective of David Gonski, which is needs based funding, but one that is genuinely consistent and not 27 contradictory deals.

DAVID SPEERS:

We are nearly out of time.

BILL SHORTEN:

David can I just, I've just got to say one thing, if more resources doesn't matter to the extent we're pushing, why do some parents pay 30 and 40 thousand dollars a year to send their kids to some schools. Now I'm not saying that that's what's going to happen under our policies. But what I am saying is if you're in a country school, or if you're in a school from a sort of poorer suburb, those kids deserve to have a proper level of resources. If you vote for Labor, when you go into those school voting booths during, on July 2nd, you'll be voting for a better future for every one of those schools you're voting in.

DAIVD SPEERS:

We'll make this our last question, Rob?

QUESTION:

I've heard plenty tonight and in the election campaign about how much you're going to spend. I've heard plenty before tonight about how much you're going to tax. What I want to know is, when are you going to stop the spending, both sides, when are you going to bring the budget back into the surplus, and when are you going to pay off the debt? We started off in 2009 with no debt, we're now on the trajectory that has been carried on by both parties throughout the course of both governments of spending increasing year on year on year. It's unsustainable. I have a 13 year old daughter and a 17 year old daughter, and the way we're going they'll still be paying the debt off when they retire. I can't see an end to it, and the promise of getting to a surplus somewhere in the never-never, all that means is we might start paying off the debt. I haven't heard anything from either party which indicates that they actually know how to get their hands out of our pockets and stop spending.

DAVID SPEERS:

It's a very good question, Rob, and I'm very keen to hear from both of you: when are we going to pay off the debt? Mr Shorten?

 

BILL SHORTEN:

We'll need to see the Government's final figures in order to give our fiscal outlook, but I can tell you some measures right now that we will do to reduce government expenditure. One, we won't go along with Tony Abbott's discredited paying large companies to pollute the environment which is delivering poor environmental results. There's a number of billions of dollars right there which comes off the burden your kids face. Two, the vocational education system in Australia has had a big tilt towards the private operators and they are dodgy, so we are going to cap the loans they can claim. That's going to save $7 billion to $8 billion over the next ten years. We've also made the decision - and sure, it will mean that some people will be less happy with Labor, but that's what leadership's about - that now is not the time to provide $50 billion in tax cuts to large companies. I just don't think a small business is one with $1 billion. The other thing we're going to do is wind back some of the unsustainable tax concession subsidies, rewards provided by all taxpayers to certain select groups at the upper end of superannuation and also negative gearing. Labor has done something which no opposition in a long time has done; we've outlined tens of billions of dollars of improvements to the bottom line. But I get your situation, and it will be front of my brain in terms of how we approach the next several weeks. Every Australian man, woman and child since the Liberals have got in has an extra $5,000 net public sector debt.

DAVID SPEERS:

Just back to the question, though, Mr Shorten, if it's front of brain for you, we all saw the budget figures last week, based on that, when would you pay off the debt?

 

BILL SHORTEN:

Well, it would be reckless of me before I've seen the final statement about government accounts to provide that number, because as soon as I do there'll be someone else saying 'gotcha'. But what I have been able to do is outline there as quickly as I can a number of specific measures which will improve the budget bottom line. Mr Turnbull?

PRIME MINISTER:

Well, thank you, David, and sir, your concern for your daughters is one we all share. A budget has to be fair and one of the most important elements of fairness is not leaving a mountain of debt for our children and grandchildren to pay for after us. Now, this is what we're doing. We are setting to bring down that deficit. We left Labor in 2007 with cash in the bank, there was no net government debt and we inherited a mountain of debt and unsustainable spending commitments. Labor has opposed all of our savings. They have been relentless and even opposed savings that they supported when they were in government. That's why Bill has $62 billion and more of money that he has not identified any source for. A black hole of $62 billion over the next four years. Now, what we're doing is we're bringing the deficit down. It will be $6 billion, which is still a huge amount of money in 2019-20, and the Budget will be in balance, so there won't be a deficit the following year, and from that moment on debt will start to come down. The way you get debt down is by eliminating spending where you can afford to deliver. If you can deliver the right policy outcome with less money, then you should do it just like you'd do in any business or any household. But most importantly what we need to do is ensure that the economy grows faster than the rate of government spending, and that is why my focus is on jobs and growth. This is critical. If we drive economic growth faster than spending, then obviously government revenues grow in line with growth and that enables us to bring the budget back into balance and then debt comes down firstly just as a percentage of our economy and then it comes down in absolute terms years after year. So, believe me, you're younger than me, you've got teenage daughters, I've got grandchildren. I want to ensure that they are not left with a mountain of debt. It was a mountain of debt that was commenced under Labor and we are determined to eliminate it so that your daughters, my grandchildren, all of our children are not burdened with that debt for years and decades to come.

DAVID SPEERS:

That debt has worsened over the last three years. Isn't it the reality neither of you can say with any surety when debt will be paid off?

 

PRIME MINISTER:

Well, David, I can tell you that as you know we estimate four years ahead. We'll be $6 billion in deficit, that's our forecast, at the end of the forward estimates - that's 2019-20 - and we estimate that we'll be in balance the next year, we're going from $37 billion deficit next year down to $6 in 2019-20...

DAVID SPEERS:

But to pay off the debt is a long way after that.

PRIME MINISTER:

That is right, but once you stop the debt growing then as your surpluses increase and your economy grows, then the debt becomes smaller as a percentage of your economy and your revenue pays it off.

DAVID SPEERS:

And will Labor do any better on budget repair?

BILL SHORTEN:

We will release our budget repair numbers, but what I can assure you is this: what I'm doing is stepping through how we pay for each promise, also how we build economic growth - strong schools, good healthcare, infrastructure, the NBN, proper policies on childcare - and what we will also do is budget repair.

DAVID SPEERS:

More budget repair is what I'm getting at.

BILL SHORTEN:

We've already provided more budget repair. Mr Turnbull accused Labor of having some number. I reject that, but furthermore what I want to say is remember the Liberals came in and they said there was a budget emergency? The Treasurer of Australia said barely last week on radio, I think it was Neil Mitchell but it could have been someone else, budget emergency is such old political language. I'm deeply conscious of the obligation to reduce the deficit, but what I will do is reduce the deficit by not giving multinationals a big tax cut. The way I will reduce the deficit is not by providing some people with access to the top end of negative gearing or superannuation tax concessions. What I won't do is reduce government debt by shoving all the problems of the budget onto household budgets, onto the sick, onto the pensioners, or to people who are least well off in our society.

DAVID SPEERS:

Thank you. We are out of time for questions. Hopefully you may be able to after the broadcast get a chance to ask a further question to one of the leaders, but it's time for the closing statements. Mr Turnbull, over to you.

PRIME MINISTER:

Thank you very much and thank you for your questions and your feedback, it's been a good night. Can I say that the point the last questioner raised is a critical one. We do have to live within our means. It's a key part of our economic plan, and we have to do that with being responsible with the way we spend money, ensuring that we get a great health service, not spending any more than we need to, great schools and making sure that we spend that money wisely. You see, if all we were to do was to compete with spending then that deficit that debt would just grow and grow forever.

So, we are determined to provide the leadership and the discipline that the Liberal National Coalition has always done. We paid off Paul Keating's debt when John Howard came into government and then we left Labor with cash at the bank - a lot of it - and they mounted up the debt, mounted up big spending programs and we came into government and they opposed our measures to cut it back, to cut back spending. What we have now is a clear national economic plan that will grow our economy, grow the opportunities for all of us and for our children and grandchildren, and that will bring our budget deficit down and bring it back into balance and over time then, the debt will be paid off. But without that plan, it will just be the same old Labor: spend and tax, deficit and a mountain of debt. We've got to bring that to an end and that's why I'm asking you all for your support for our national economic plan. It will deliver and secure the prosperity of our nation in the years ahead.

DAVID SPEERS:

Thank you, Mr Turnbull. Your closing statement, Mr Shorten?

BILL SHORTEN:

Thank you everybody for attending. I think it has been a good discussion and certainly your questions put the acid on us in terms of the weight and merit of our answers. I hope you've got a slightly better idea of who I am tonight as well. Now, Labor has at this election positive plans for the future. We have got positive plans which I've touched upon about Australian jobs. We've got positive plans for education, school funding, TAFE and universities. We've got positive plans to not only defend Medicare but improve Medicare. We've got positive plans, and not that it's had a big discussion tonight, but to prioritise climate change which is a real threat to household cost of living, especially through promoting renewable energy. We have got positive plans about a fairer taxation system, including tackling the issue of affordability for first home buyers.

Fundamentally, this election will be about a choice. It's not about whether or not we both want a better Australia - of course we do - it's how we get there. I've articulated how we would make savings. We'll make the hard decision that we have to wind back some of the tax concessions and subsidies which go to a certain select group in our community because I would rather use that money to fund our schools and hospitals. For me, it's about putting people first. You can either decide that you look after the very top in society and that would trickle down to everyone else or you look after the middle and working class with a good safety net of workplace conditions, properly funded schools and Medicare.

I believe in an Australia where it isn't your postcode or the wealth of your parent which determines your chance to have a fair go. I believe one of the greatest Australian aspirations is the aspiration for equal opportunity and a fair go all around. I look forward to talking to you after this session.

Thank you very much.

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